SUMMARY: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it?

From: Dave Werth (iim1dfw@iim.ups.com)
Date: Fri Jul 07 2000 - 12:15:00 CDT

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Dave Werth
UPS Aviation Technologies
(formerly: II Morrow, Inc.)
Salem, Oregon
iim1dfw@at.ups.com
The original question was:

>We are in the process of setting up a new E-450... The E-450 has an
attached A-1000 disk array and we will be running Oracle (7.3.4) on it.

>We are considering Veritas Database Edition for Oracle. The question is
this worth the cost? Alternatively, we might just get Veritas Volume
Manager & File System. Is the Oracle piece worth the extra expenditure? Or
should we just forget about it and just use Disk Suite?

Thanks to the following for their replies:
Jason K. Schechner [jas@cais.com]

Here are the replies:
=============================
I've run the Oracle edition before and I've got it on order for my new shop.
The QuickIO makes for a definite speed improvement and, even better, it's a
journaling filesystem. If the system crashes you don't have to fsk the
filesystem, which tends to be the longest part of the boot-up procedure for
a db server, especially when you have a large (500g+) database. The only
gotcha is that you have to have Veritas NetBackup to read the QuickIO'd
files, but fortunately that's a very good product too. They both get two
thumbs up from me.

-Jason
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Message-ID: <20000705193823.14399.qmail@kev.region2.wpafb.af.mil>
From: Karl Vogel <vogelke@dnaco.net>
To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com>
Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth
it?
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:38:23 -0700
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

>> On Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:40:54 -0700 ,
>> Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> said:

D> We are in the process of setting up a new E-450 to replace our old
D> SparcServer 1000. We will be running Solaris 2.5.1 on it because of
D> application software limitations. The E-450 has an attached A-1000 disk
D> array and we will be running our ERP software and Oracle (7.3.4) on it.

D> We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle
D> (which includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this
D> worth the cost (under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the
D> Veritas Volume Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the
D> Oracle piece worth the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget
D> about it and Disk Suite? Any recommendations will be greatly
D> appreciated.

We're going to upgrade to a 450 sometime later this year. The setup
will look something like this:

   * 4 400-Mhz CPUs
   * 1 Gb memory
   * 8 9-Gb drives
   * Oracle

   This specs out to under $50K, not including a tape drive for backups,
   which we're buying separately. We didn't want to spend the money for
   the volume manager stuff; it's a big-ticket item, and I haven't been
   really thrilled with it since we first bought it 5 years ago. I'd just
   as soon make sure that our Oracle data and control files live on
   separate drives, and make partitions by hand.

-- Karl Vogel ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433, USA vogelke@dnaco.net or kvogel@sumaria.com

Homer: Well, the evening began at the Gentleman's Club, where we were discussing Wittgenstein over a game of backgammon. Scully: Mr. Simpson, it's a felony to lie to the FBI. Homer: We were sitting in Barney's car eating packets of mustard. Ya happy? -- Homer Simpson, "The Springfield Files"

----- Message-ID: <F5DF20851C49D311809C0090278A0DBD02D20A1F@hqex01.aas.ameritech.com> From: "Caparrosso, Nelson T." <Nelson.T.Caparrosso@Mail.AAS.ameritech.com> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: RE: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 06:23:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

Veritas Database Edition's important Oracle piece is Quick I/O w/c allows doing raw access to filesystem database files. It is supposed to provide the ease of a filesystem while providing direct raw device performance. What it basically does is to do away with the filesystem cache so 'double-buffering' is avoided but for very large databases on large memory servers, it re-introduces cached Quick I/O selectively on certain files to further improve performance and circumvent Oracle SGA/ISM limits.

My advice:

- if your database's SGA is nearing or approaching 2GB and you've greater than 4 GB server memory and your database does a lot more critical DSS, then Quick I/O (and Cached Quick I/O) is a viable solution.

- if you've enough Veritas VolManager expertise and is very good at managing a mix of raw devices and filesystems, then I suggest just going for raw devices (but be sure to have fully redundant storage subsystems and volume layouts).

Hope this helps.

Nelson

-----Original Message----- From: Dave Werth [mailto:iim1dfw@iim.ups.com] Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 4:41 PM To: sun-managers@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu Subject: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it?

We are in the process of setting up a new E-450 to replace our old SparcServer 1000. We will be running Solaris 2.5.1 on it because of application software limitations. The E-450 has an attached A-1000 disk array and we will be running our ERP software and Oracle (7.3.4) on it.

We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle (which includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this worth the cost (under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the Veritas Volume Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the Oracle piece worth the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget about it and Disk Suite? Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as complete as I would like.

I'll summarize the answers I receive.

Thanks, Dave

Dave Werth UPS Aviation Technologies (formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) Salem, Oregon iim1dfw@at.ups.com

S U BEFORE POSTING please READ the FAQ located at N ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq . and the list POLICY statement located at M ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/policy A To submit questions/summaries to this list send your email message to: N sun-managers@ececs.uc.edu A To unsubscribe from this list please send an email message to: G majordomo@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu E and in the BODY type: R unsubscribe sun-managers S Or . unsubscribe sun-managers original@subscription.address L To view an archive of this list please visit: I http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html S T

----- Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.20.0007041216430.11909-100000@struten> From: Birger Wathne <Birger.Wathne@getronics.no> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 03:34:01 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

I usually run DiskSuite on my OS disks, as I feel much more comfortable doing OS upgrades on DiskSuite. I run everything mirrored, and I can just bring down the system, yank out one submirror, boot, deconfigure DiskSuite (metaroot and edit vfstab) and upgrade. If I have to back out of the upgrade, I just yank out the upgraded disks, plug in the mirrored ones that were yanked out *before* deconfiguring the mirrors, think hard about where I have state databases, how many, etc. And then boot from the mirror.

I then skip the initialization script for vxvm and run some other scripts instead. These scripts set up 2 slices in rootdg instead of whole disks. These slices are not used for any file systems. I put all data disks in vxvm, as I think it has more flexibility when working on online file systems. Especially with vxfs, where I can shrink a file system 'live'. But I never put any data in rootdg.

The script I use instead of vxinstall is create-rootdg in the package located at http://www.pogostick.net/~esm/documents/ESMclon.html You should definitely install the package at http://www.pogostick.net/~esm/documents/ESMvxbu.html as it will save your butt a few times over the years. And it's even documented in english!

Birger Birger Wathne Senior Systems Consultant Getronics Birger.Wathne@getronics.no Norge Getronics Norge AS (+47) 55 98 28 00 (switchboard) Postboks 154 Kokstad (+47) 55 98 28 06 (direct) N-5863 Bergen, Norway (+47) 55 98 28 80 (fax)

----- Message-ID: <20000703195203.B6280@severe.neurosis.net> From: Mark Luntzel <mark@neurosis.net> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:52:04 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

ask yourself how much downtime you can handle. if you can handle your database being down for hours for cold backups, dont get the oracle edition. if on the other hand, you need your database to be up as much as possible, get yourself some hot backup solution. I may be completely off, but I think thats the value-add you get with the oracle database edition.

On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 01:40:54PM -0700, Dave Werth chortled: > We are in the process of setting up a new E-450 to replace our old > SparcServer 1000. We will be running Solaris 2.5.1 on it because of > application software limitations. The E-450 has an attached A-1000 disk > array and we will be running our ERP software and Oracle (7.3.4) on it. > > We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle (which > includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this worth the cost > (under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the Veritas Volume > Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the Oracle piece worth > the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget about it and Disk Suite? > Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated. > > I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as > complete as I would like. > > I'll summarize the answers I receive. > > Thanks, Dave > > > > Dave Werth > UPS Aviation Technologies > (formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) > Salem, Oregon > iim1dfw@at.ups.com > > > S > U BEFORE POSTING please READ the FAQ located at > N ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq > . and the list POLICY statement located at > M ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/policy > A To submit questions/summaries to this list send your email message to: > N sun-managers@ececs.uc.edu > A To unsubscribe from this list please send an email message to: > G majordomo@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu > E and in the BODY type: > R unsubscribe sun-managers > S Or > . unsubscribe sun-managers original@subscription.address > L To view an archive of this list please visit: > I http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html > S > T

-- "Might as well be frank, monsieur. It would take a miracle to get you out of Casablanca and the Germans have outlawed miracles."

----- Message-ID: <D51A10298BE5D3119E96009027B70DA14928D9@xmail.exp.com> From: Asad Baheri <Asad@exp.com> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: RE: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:21:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

It depends on what you are doing, we are an e-commerce company and for us it's critical so we paid for the oracle piece. One of the large advantages of the oracle piece is the quick I/O. Oracle works better when you have raw disk partitions for it to use and using the veritas agent you can dynamically increase the partitions that Oracle uses as the size of your database increases. You can also use the veritas volume manager to increase/decrease your partitions something you can't do with disksuite. Also if you decide at some point to go with a clustering agent the veritas cluster works nicely with all of this and is a better product than sun cluster.

-----Original Message----- From: Dave Werth To: sun-managers@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu Sent: 7/3/00 1:40 PM Subject: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it?

I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as complete as I would like.

I'll summarize the answers I receive.

Thanks, Dave

Dave Werth UPS Aviation Technologies (formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) Salem, Oregon iim1dfw@at.ups.com

----- Message-ID: <39611455.9EFD5813@home.com> From: Buddy Lumpkin <blumpkin@home.com> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:31:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

That's pretty cheap.... My company is paying over 100k for Database Edition with the ha suite.

Dave Werth wrote:

> We are in the process of setting up a new E-450 to replace our old > SparcServer 1000. We will be running Solaris 2.5.1 on it because of > application software limitations. The E-450 has an attached A-1000 disk > array and we will be running our ERP software and Oracle (7.3.4) on it. > > We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle (which > includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this worth the cost > (under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the Veritas Volume > Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the Oracle piece worth > the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget about it and Disk Suite? > Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated. > > I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as > complete as I would like. > > I'll summarize the answers I receive. > > Thanks, Dave > > Dave Werth > UPS Aviation Technologies > (formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) > Salem, Oregon > iim1dfw@at.ups.com > > S > U BEFORE POSTING please READ the FAQ located at > N ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq > . and the list POLICY statement located at > M ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/policy > A To submit questions/summaries to this list send your email message to: > N sun-managers@ececs.uc.edu > A To unsubscribe from this list please send an email message to: > G majordomo@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu > E and in the BODY type: > R unsubscribe sun-managers > S Or > . unsubscribe sun-managers original@subscription.address > L To view an archive of this list please visit: > I http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html > S > T

----- Message-ID: <3961109B.2A0EA3EB@earthlink.net> From: Michael Ernest <mfernest@earthlink.net> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:15:55 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

I don't think the A1000 and it's control system, RAID Manager 6, are supported in Solaris 2.5.1. I'm pretty sure Solaris 2.6 is the minimum -- you may wish to confirm this.

> We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle (which > includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this worth the cost > (under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the Veritas Volume > Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the Oracle piece worth > the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget about it and Disk Suite? > Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

Quick primer: the A1000 is a hardware RAID appliance. Volume Manager is a software RAID tool. There are some good reasons for using them together.

- The A1000 supports up to 8 LUNs (logical disk collections), but hosts a total of 12 drives. If the possible combinations is limiting, you might use Volume Manager to create more logical drives.

- If you wanted to mirror the contents of one A1000 to another, you'd need a software RAID tool to do it.

In short, using Volume Manager with a single A1000 would be difficult to justify, IMHO. You still might use the File System product, though. VxFS, as its known, provides some distinct advantages over ufs. For database activities (in particular crash recovery), it's very nice, although you could arguable get similar benefits from DiskSuite, which is free.

But I think your big stumbling block in Solaris 2.5.1. Take a look at the release notes for Raid Manager 6. I don't believe it is supported with Solaris 2.5.1.

http://www.sun.com/service/online/raid_release_notes.pdf

begin 600 mfernest.vcf M8F5G:6XZ=F-A<F0@#0IN.D5R;F5S=#M-:6-H865L#0IT96P[9F%X.B@W,#<I M-S0W+3$U,S0-"G1E;#MW;W)K.B@W,#<I,S(X+30S,S(-"G@M;6]Z:6QL82UH M=&UL.D9!3%-%#0IO<F<Z26YK;&EN9R!297-E87)C:"P@26YC+@T*861R.CL[ M.30P($%D86US(%-T+BP@4W5I=&4@1SM"96YI8VEA.T-!.SDT-3$P.PT*=F5R M<VEO;CHR+C$-"F5M86EL.VEN=&5R;F5T.FUF97)N97-T0&5A<G1H;&EN:RYN M970-"G1I=&QE.E-Y<W1E;7,@16YG:6YE97(-"F9N.DUI8VAA96P@17)N97-T -#0IE;F0Z=F-A<F0-"@== ` end

----- Message-ID: <000901bfe53b$43df44c0$9b04563f@anakin> From: Bill Hussain <bill@hussains.net> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:08:47 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

All you get is quick I/O and their snapshot feature...I only use FS and VM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Werth" <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> To: <sun-managers@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 1:40 PM Subject: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it?

> We are in the process of setting up a new E-450 to replace our old > SparcServer 1000. We will be running Solaris 2.5.1 on it because of > application software limitations. The E-450 has an attached A-1000 disk > array and we will be running our ERP software and Oracle (7.3.4) on it. > > We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle (which > includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this worth the cost > (under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the Veritas Volume > Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the Oracle piece worth > the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget about it and Disk Suite? > Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated. > > I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as > complete as I would like. > > I'll summarize the answers I receive. > > Thanks, Dave > > > > Dave Werth > UPS Aviation Technologies > (formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) > Salem, Oregon > iim1dfw@at.ups.com > > > S > U BEFORE POSTING please READ the FAQ located at > N ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq > . and the list POLICY statement located at > M ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/policy > A To submit questions/summaries to this list send your email message to: > N sun-managers@ececs.uc.edu > A To unsubscribe from this list please send an email message to: > G majordomo@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu > E and in the BODY type: > R unsubscribe sun-managers > S Or > . unsubscribe sun-managers original@subscription.address > L To view an archive of this list please visit: > I http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html > S > T

----- Message-ID: <39610BAC.5AAE3BA5@home.com> From: Aaron <aaronkr@home.com> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:54:52 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

Dave, That's quite a mouthfull. The A1000 is a hardware RAID disk array. You don't describe how you are going to use it (raw or cooked devices, RAID5, mirror, etc.) or the size of the database. The Veritas products can augment the hardware RAID implementation depending on what it is. The key here is 'what it is'. You may want to look into the Quick I/O product from Veritas (which I think is part of the Database Edition). It allows you to use cooked file systems that are as fast or faster than raw devices. It also has the benefit of making backups a little easier too.

Aaron Krongard

Dave Werth wrote: > > We are in the process of setting up a new E-450 to replace our old > SparcServer 1000. We will be running Solaris 2.5.1 on it because of > application software limitations. The E-450 has an attached A-1000 disk > array and we will be running our ERP software and Oracle (7.3.4) on it. > > We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle (which > includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this worth the cost > (under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the Veritas Volume > Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the Oracle piece worth > the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget about it and Disk Suite? > Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated. > > I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as > complete as I would like. > > I'll summarize the answers I receive. > > Thanks, Dave > > Dave Werth > UPS Aviation Technologies > (formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) > Salem, Oregon > iim1dfw@at.ups.com > > S > U BEFORE POSTING please READ the FAQ located at > N ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq > . and the list POLICY statement located at > M ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/policy > A To submit questions/summaries to this list send your email message to: > N sun-managers@ececs.uc.edu > A To unsubscribe from this list please send an email message to: > G majordomo@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu > E and in the BODY type: > R unsubscribe sun-managers > S Or > . unsubscribe sun-managers original@subscription.address > L To view an archive of this list please visit: > I http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html > S > T

----- Message-ID: <OFA31B2842.C90375CF-ON88256911.0076DEB6@econnections.com> From: Joel.Lee@eConnections.com To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:41:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

If you are using Oracle and performance is important, I would suggest get the Quick I/O as well. It will bypass several buffering layer and thus improve performance. VM and Vxfs allows flexibility much better than OLDS. So for me, it's worth the investment.

Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com>

Sent by: To: sun-managers@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu owner-sun-managers@sunmanagers.ec cc:

ecs.uc.edu Subject: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it?

07/03/00 01:40 PM

I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as complete as I would like.

I'll summarize the answers I receive.

Thanks, Dave

Dave Werth UPS Aviation Technologies (formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) Salem, Oregon iim1dfw@at.ups.com

----- Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000703172208.00d89580@pop.obscure.org> From: Dan Brown <brown@obscure.org> To: Dave Werth <iim1dfw@iim.ups.com> Subject: Re: Are Veritas Oracle DB Edition, or Vol. Mgr./FS products worth it? Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:34:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)

At 01:40 PM 7/3/00 -0700, you wrote: >We are in the process of setting up a new E-450 to replace our old >SparcServer 1000. We will be running Solaris 2.5.1 on it because of >application software limitations. The E-450 has an attached A-1000 disk >array and we will be running our ERP software and Oracle (7.3.4) on it. > >We are considering getting the Veritas Database Edition for Oracle (which >includes Volume Manager & File System). The question is this worth the cost >(under $10,000)? Alternatively, we might just get the Veritas Volume >Manager & File System without the Oracle piece. Is the Oracle piece worth >the extra expenditure? Or should we just forget about it and Disk Suite? >Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

I'd recommend staying away from Just disksuite for anything really critical. If you /do/ go with SDS, make sure you have backups. Its gotten better, but I don't quite trust it.

I'd look at how you have your database is setup and evaluate whether you /really/ need any sort of software raid. If you spread things out, and use hardware raid, you might not need SDS or Veritas.

>I've looked through the archives and found some information but it's not as >complete as I would like. > >I'll summarize the answers I receive. > >Thanks, Dave > > > >Dave Werth >UPS Aviation Technologies >(formerly: II Morrow, Inc.) >Salem, Oregon >iim1dfw@at.ups.com > > >S >U BEFORE POSTING please READ the FAQ located at >N ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq >. and the list POLICY statement located at >M ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/policy >A To submit questions/summaries to this list send your email message to: >N sun-managers@ececs.uc.edu >A To unsubscribe from this list please send an email message to: >G majordomo@sunmanagers.ececs.uc.edu >E and in the BODY type: >R unsubscribe sun-managers >S Or >. unsubscribe sun-managers original@subscription.address >L To view an archive of this list please visit: >I http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html >S >T

-- It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. Albert Einstein

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