Hello,
It actually amazes me that people could be in any way indignant in regards
to your post. Yet it doesn't surprise me that someone who can't take the
time to do a modicum of research before joining a list would also not have
any incentive to read a man page or a UNIX reference book. Even seasoned
admins comb over the man pages and crack a nutshell book. Additionally
there are IRC channels that would maybe better suited towards questions
like how to set the execute bit on a shell script. I am glad you decided to
throw your post out there. I think you were very honest and in no way
condescending. Amen brother-make that 19.
Cliff
At 02:17 PM 10/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>The following is a rough summary of the responses I received regarding my
>post to the list last week, in which I commented on the high volume of
>questions posted from folks who clearly had not tried other sources first.
>
>The majority of the respondents agreed with me. Many share the view that
>this list is becoming more and more a "newbie" list. Most stated that they
>regularly send RTFM's and pointers to other resources to help discourage
>these kinds of questions.
>
>A few disagreed, feeling that "The only stupid question is the question
>not asked." While the quote certainly is true, I would like to remind
>these folks that there are plenty of resources available for asking ANY
>type of question. This list is reserved for a subset of these questions.
>Remember?
>
>Thanks to everyone for their feedback.
>
>Here are some of the resources I regularly point people to:
>
> UNIX Mail List (great for beginners)
> UNIX-WIZ@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU (via LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU)
>
> Sun Administration Newsgroups
> comp.sys.sun.admin : Sun Solaris sysadmin newsgroup
> comp.unix.solaris : Sun Solaris sysadmin newsgroup
> comp.sys.sun.apps : Sun Applications newsgroup
> comp.sys.sun.hardware : Sun Hardware newsgroup
>
> Sun Managers List Archive
> http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html
> http://www.dataman.nl/cgi-bin/sunmanagers
> http://www.LaTech.edu/sunman-search.html (great search engine!)
> http://www.dataman.nl/sunman.lp
>
> Sun Manager's FAQ
> ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq
> http://www.latech.edu/sunmanfaq.html
>
> Sun Documentation
> http://docs.sun.com/
>
>My original post follows.
>
><MY COMMENT>
>
> First I would like to apologize for including an actual recent question
> in my message; I now regret singling this person out, and as some have
> pointed out, the problem may have been more complicated than it seemed.
>
> And I hope that noone thought I was trying to dissuade anyone from asking
> questions of their peers, even if they seem elementary. There is always
> going to be a wide range of experience and knowledge, and isn't that the
> point of these resources is in the first place?
>
> The point I was trying to make was that elementary questions should be
> asked ELSEWHERE, such as in newsgroups. Having your question show up in
> a newsgroup is very different than having it emailed to each and every
> member of the list. If more folks would politely remind people to use
> these resources, I think the questions posted to this list would better
> reflect the list's intended purpose.
>
> The charter for the Sun Manager's List is very specific about what this
> list is and what it is intended for, and it makes it very clear what
> types of questions are appropriate. If someone disagrees that's fine,
> but if they use the resource they should at least adhere to its rules.
>
><RESPONSES>
>
>The responses can fit roughtly into four categories, and here are the
>number of responses for each:
>
> (1) Amen brother (actual quote in more than a few!): 18
>
> (2) Agree, with reservations: 2
>
> (3) Disagree: 3
>
> (4) You elitist condescending bastard: 2
>
>
>Useful Quote:
>
> "As for solution, I agree with you. (But not with your standard.) The
> charter should just say, "If the query is inappropriate for this mailing
> list (training question, sales pitch or job placement pitch, etc.), do not
> give an informative response. Instruct the querant as to why its an
> inappropriate question, and then tell them to rtfm, take the Sun Ed class,
> or find a new line of work." (Picture hundreds of list-readers telling the
> guy to go get a clue...) This will only be ineffective if some more
> knowledgable but stupid person give these guys the free ride they are
> looking for." -Eugene Choi
>
>My Point Entirely:
>
> "Seems to me that if all of the more experienced admins simply
> ignore the "newbie"-type questions, those people might get the hint and
stop
> asking them..." -Chuck Cox
>
>Yikes!
>
> "David you are a grade A jerk!" -Tom Cowan
>
>
>Respondents:
>
>"Reichert, Alan" <aareichert@tasc.com>
>"Chad Rytting (Administrative Account)" <ryttinch@sol.slcc.edu>
>Wimmer Jeffrey <Wimmer.Jeffrey@LittonDSD.com>
>Tim Evans <tkevans@eplrx7.es.dupont.com>
>"Kris Briscoe (r8465c)" <r8465c@email.sps.mot.com>
>Dan Stromberg <strombrg@nis.acs.uci.edu>
>Mark Scannapieco <scann@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu>
>"Joseph Kwan" <jkwan@ampersand.jpl.nasa.gov>
>"Choi, Eugene" <choi@ftintl.com>
>"Darryl C. Price" <darrylp@earthlink.net>
>"Arthur J. Byrnes" <abyrnes@stetson.edu>
>Chuck Cox <CoxCP@louisville.stortek.com>
>john.hilger@ac.com
>"dylan.carlson" <dylan.carlson@mciworld.com>
>"Freeman, Jim (PBW-J2Freeman)" <j2freeman@pacbellwireless.com>
>"Marco Greene" <mgreene@sympatico.ca>
>Tom Cowan <cowan@zoomcom.com>
><dharringt@deq.state.va.us> (David B. Harrington)
>Thomas Anders <anders@hmi.de>
>Edwards Philip M Ctr AFRL/SNRR <Philip.Edwards@sn.wpafb.af.mil>
>Thad MacMillan <thadm@oregonian.com>
>Bryan Hodgson <bhodgson@astea.com>
>"Z.K. Zachariah" <zac@agorics.com>
>
>
>>
>> Has anyone else noticed that the signal-to-noise ratio for this list has
>> decreased exponentially lately? Just today I've seen questions about how
>> to specify a shell in a shell script, other questions that are easily
>> answered by looking at the man page or any decent UNIX manual, and this:
>>
>> > Given the directory:
>> >
>> > dr-xr-xr-x 2 root root 2 Oct 8 10:55 /home
>> >
>> > Why would I not be able to create a subdirctory in it?
>>
>> Clearly those asking the questions are not adhering to the intent of
>> the list's charter. These questions are not related to time-critical
>> system administration questions; folks are using this list to learn UNIX
>> system administration. You can't really blame them since it's always faster
>> to get someone with experience to answer your question than it is to
>> consult the documentation or a book.
>>
>> What may not be quite so obvious is that people would stop asking questions
>> like this if those on the list, instead of just answering them, would
politely
>> remind them that (a) this question is not really appropriate for this
>> list; and (b) RTFM, perhaps with a pointer (eg. try "man ls").
>>
>> Just my .02
>>
>> Dave Foster
>>
>
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