Many thanks to the following people for their help:
Davin Milun, Stephen Wolthusen,
Peter Polasek, Martin Oksnevad,
John DiMarco, Dave Haut,
Matt Reynolds, Trace Radler,
Noah Alvarez Jr., Casper Dik,
Kelly Fergason, Renzo Toma,
Matthew Reynolds, Michael J. Connolly,
Jay Lessert
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Following are the suggestions most helpful for us:
1."We have the dual 360 Ultra 60's and the dual 300 Ultra 2's here and
the
Ultra 60's are considerably faster." "This thing runs like a bat outta
hell."
2."The 360MHz CPU module (with 4mb fast cache) is only available in U60
machines." "I want the 360Mhz processor, but Sun only makes the U60 in
the
tower configuration and does not offer a 'headless' version."
3."The U60 360Mhz processor has a 4Mb cache. This chip is MUCH more
powerful
than the U2 300Mhz chip with only a 2Mb cache. U60 motherboard speed is
100MHz with 300MHz CPUs and 120MHz with 360MHz CPUs."
4."We have implemented several U60s and and have not had any reliability
problems." "We have a 60 here, and about 10 U2's. The 60 seems to work
fine."
5."In addition you can get dual UltraWide SCSI controller PCI cards for
the U60 for less than FastWide SCSI SBus cards for the U2. Sun will
not make new models with SBus bus (U2 was the last one and 2 years old)
only PCI bus (as in U5, U10, U30, U60, E250 and E450)."
6."And also important the U60 can have two 24-bit Creator/Creator3D
monitor
cards while the U2 can only have one 24-bit Creator/Creator3D monitor
card."
7."We own both U2's and U60's. All our new desktop purchases are U30's
and U60's. I've done I/O benchmarks between U2's and U60's and found
no significant difference."
8."I would recommend a little different configuration: 512 Mb memory
and the Elite 3D m3 or m6 graphics card. The performace increase offered
by the Elite series is impressive."
9."The only thing I don't like about the U30/U60 platform is that you
get
a nasty high-frequency whine off the disk drive. Most of my users end
up parking a binder or something in front of the box to block it."
10."The only issue that you may want to consider is the Ultra 60 does
not support sbus cards."
11."For the price of a new U60, you can get a twin CPU ultra 2."
12."The only reason one could prefer a U2 over a U60 is when you need
to rack as many as possible in one 19" rack."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is the original request:
Dear Sun-Managers;
We are going to buy a workstation for image analysis(MRI,PET).
The user is interested in Ultra-60 with following configuration:
1x360MHz CPU, 128MB memory, Creator3D Graphics, 20" monitor,
12x CD, 9.1GB SCSI disk, 4mm tape drive, Solaris2.6 desktop.
Some users think a Ultra-2 with a 300MHz CPU may be as fast as the
Ultra-60,
and the Ultra-2 is more reliable and powerful.
Does any one have experience working with the Ultra-60?
Any Ideas?
Thank you in advance!
=============================================================================
Here are the responses:
=============================================================================
I have not actually used an Ultra 60 yet (we have one here, that I'll be
setting up in the next few days).
However, from everything that I've read, I don't believe that your "some
users" are correct at all.
The Ultra 60 is the PCI equivalent of the Ultra 2.
Sun is moving to PCI bus for all their systems, as PCI is faster than
SBus.
And the CPU modules are the same, so the 360MHz module is the U60 is
going
to be faster than the 300MHz module in the U2.
According to the Sun Ultra 60 announcement:
-------------------------------------------
...
Q. Where are the Ultra 60 systems positioned in Sun's workstation
family and do they replace current products?
A. The Ultra 60 is Sun's new highest-performance multiprocessor
workstation and is positioned as an extension of the current Ultra 2
systems. The current Ultra 2 systems remain in the Ultra product
family, and will continue to ship through 1999 to support customers
with specific SBus needs.
Q. What are the differences between Ultra 2 and Ultra 60 systems?
A. Ultra 60 increases the performance levels of all the technologies
introduced on Ultra 2. These technology and performance
improvements include: better performance with the 360-MHz
UltraSPARC-II processor models, double the disk performance with
40 MB/second UltraSCSI disks, 2 channels of high-performance PCI I/O
bus, a 120-MHz ready UPA for an easy upgrade to the next-generation
UltraSPARC-II processor, and new Creator Graphics Series 3 and
Elite3D with dual monitor capability.
...
---------------------------------------------
So, I'd suggest going with the U60, not th U2.
Davin.
--
Davin Milun Internet: milun@cs.Buffalo.EDU milun@acm.org
Fax: (716) 645-3464
WWW: http://www.cs.buffalo.edu/~milun/
===========================================================================
I've had a U60/2360 (dual 360 MHz, 512MB RAM, 9GB HDD, Creator 3D-III)
since
its official introduction in May. This thing runs like a bat outta hell.
As per reliability there is obviously not enough information to go by at
this
time, but from the way the machine is built I'd say it is maybe even
more
solid than the U1/U2 series.
The only reason I can think of for buying a U2 is if you have
significant
investments in SBus cards that are not available in PCI format. Other
than
that, SBus is inferior to (properly designed...) PCI cards and will
wither
away. Same thing goes for the U2 which will soon be EOLed.
As for speed - I do not have a 300MHz U2 handy (and besides, I'm running
Solaris 2.7 64 bit edition which makes comparisons rather moot), but the
backplane on the U60 is clocked at 120 MHz, the 360s have 4MB 2nd level
cache. You not only get the 20 percent increase in raw clock speed but
also
added memory bandwidth (which you may or may not need in your
application - my
stuff usually runs in rather tight code and data space fitting
completely
within L2 on the U60).
The 3D-III is not a screamer when it comes to 3D (I couldn't justify an
Elite
board for what I do, but from other people's experience with the 3dm6 in
an
U30 they are FAST).
A nice feature of the 3D-III over the -Is is multiple PseudoColor
overlays. Might be helpful in your application.
The only issue with the U60 is that it generates considerable heat - but
thanks to the large low-speed fans it is much quieter than the U1/U2
series. I
have an U1/200E standing next to the U1 (hey - there's no such thing as
too
much CPU power..) and the U1 is LOUD in comparison. Largely due to the
7200rpm
at the front of the case, but the fans make some noise, too.
--
later,
Stephen
Fraunhofer-IGD | mailto:
Stephen Wolthusen | swolthusen@acm.org
Rundeturmstr. 6 | wolt@igd.fhg.de
64283 Darmstadt, GERMANY | stephenw@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
| wolt@capcom.de
|
Tel +49 (0) 6151 155 539 (Bs.) | Fax: +49 (0) 6151 155 499 (Bs.)
+49 (0) 172 916 9883 | +49 (0) 6245 905 366 (Pri.)
+49 (0) 6245 6952 (Pri.) |
===============================================================================
The U60 360Mhz processor has a 4Mb cache. This chip is MUCH more
powerful than the U2 300Mhz chip with only a 2Mb cache. Although
the processor speed is obviously higher in the U60, the cache size
can make an even bigger difference because fetches from physical
memory can take an eternity in CPU clock ticks. Occasionally, Sun
has released high clock-speed processors that are not very powerful
because operations take multiple clocks (the Sparc-5 110Mhz is an
example of this). I don't think there are any tradeoffs like this
in the U60 processor.
I have the opposite problem - I want the 360Mhz processor, but
Sun only makes the U60 in the tower configuration and does not
offer a 'headless' version. I am therefore stuck with the U2
2300. I'm sure you know that both the U2 and U60 have the
ability to add a second CPU.
Pete
From: Peter Polasek <pete@cobra.brass.com>
===============================================================================
The 300MHz CPU module (with 2mb fast cache) used in U2 and U60 machines
are the same (can be moved between U2 and U60 systems) and thus there
should be no or little speed differense between a U2-1300 and a
U60-1300.
The 360MHz CPU module (with 4mb fast cache) is only available in U60
machines. U60 motherboard speed is 100MHz with 300MHz CPUs and
120MHz with 360MHz CPUs.
In addition you can get dual UltraWide SCSI controller PCI cards for
the U60 for less than FastWide SCSI SBus cards for the U2. Sun will
not make new models with SBus bus (U2 was the last one and 2 years old)
only PCI bus (as in U5, U10, U30, U60, E250 and E450).
And also important the U60 can have two 24-bit Creator/Creator3D monitor
cards while the U2 can only have one 24-bit Creator/Creator3D monitor
card.
The U60-1360 (1*360MHz) will outperform all single CPU U2s.
The U2 is and was a good machine but the U60 is better.
The only reason one could prefer a U2 over a U60 is when you need
to rack as many as possible in one 19" rack. I think you can have
appr. 50% more U2s than U60s in one 19" rack.
Unless you need to support some old HW that needs SBus cards go for the
U60.
Martin
From: martin@stavanger.geoquest.slb.com (Martin Oksnevad)
=============================================================================
"What sort of workstation should I buy" is not really the sort of topic
for postings to this list. Please read the faq for more details
(ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/jdd/sun-managers/faq)
It is not true that the Ultra 2 is more powerful than the Ultra 60.
Also, I
have seen nothing to suggest that the Ultra 2 is more reliable than the
Ultra
60. I don't know of any reason other than form factor (the Ultra 2 is
a desktop machine, while an Ultra 60 is a deskside tower) or need for
sbus
capability (the Ultra 2 is Sbus, the Ultra 10 is PCI) to choose an Ultra
2
over an Ultra 60.
Regards,
John
--
John DiMarco <jdd@cs.toronto.edu> Office: SF2101
CSLab Systems Manager Phone:
416-978-5300
University of Toronto Fax:
416-978-1931
http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~jdd
================================================================================
Hi,
We have the dual 360 Ultra 60's and the dual 300 Ultra 2's here and the
Ultra 60's are considerably faster.
We are very happy with the Ultra 60's !!!
The only issue that you may want to consider also is the Ultra 60 does
not support sbus cards. If that is not an issue for you, then I
recommend
that you buy Ultra 60's.
Hope This Helps ...
---------------------------------
_ /| Dave Haut
\,o.O' Manager, UNIX Sys Admin Group
=(___)= Level One Communications
U dhaut@level1.com
(916) 854-2838
==============================================================================
Shubin,Another option is go a 400mhz Pentium-II with a AGP video adapter
and alot of ram - just as fast (if not faster) than the ultra...
Depends if the application is available for x86 or not.
Regards,
Matt Reynolds
--
Matt Reynolds matt@aztek-eng.com
Sr. Systems Engineer V:303-415-6166
Aztek Engineering, Inc. F:303-786-9190
2477 55th St. www.aztek-eng.com
Boulder, CO 80301
===============================================================================
I have implemented several Ultra60s and have not had any reliability
problems. I chose the Ultra60 for price/performance over the Ultra2. You
may want to check the www.sun.com for performance specs. I also like the
PCI architecture over Sbus.
Trace Radler-Bellsouth <Trace.Radler@pcs.bls.com>
===============================================================================
Teh Ultra 60 has two standard SCSI interfaces, much better serial
interfaces and can rn its bus upto 120MHz (Ultra-2: 100Mhz).
It also fits two UPA cards, not one.
I have one on my desk and it's really nice.
PCI for Sun is still in its infancy (i.e., few Sun cards, a few 3red
party
cards supported)
Casper Casper Dik <casper@holland.Sun.COM>
==============================================================================
The U60 with a 360Mhz cpu would be faster than the U2 with the 300.
Other than that, the main difference would be sbus vs. pci.
We have a 60 here, and about 10 U2's. The 60 seems to work fine.
We have no 300Mhz U2's, just the 167's and a 200 or 2.
Kelly klfergason@amoco.com
===============================================================================
I dont know about Ultra-60 vs Ultra-2 but may I suggest adding more
memory? 128Mb aint much, even for a workstation and especially if you'll
be doing graphics..
From: Renzo Toma <renzo@veronica.nl>
================================================================================
Hello:
I work with an imagery reconnaissance program. We use SAR
which is
very similar to MRI. We just upgraded our machines to the ULTRA-2
with
dual 300 Mhz and Creator3D Graphics card. We are very happy with image
quality and resolution.
Any other questions, I will be happy to answer.
Regards,
Noah Alvarez Jr.
Raytheon Systems Company (ASARS-2)
System Administrator
================================================================================
I've not used an Ultra 60, but I seriously doubt that Sun would take
a step backwards on performance terms.
Obviously the faster CPU will benefit, and the Ultra 60 uses twin
66MHz PCI buses, compared to the Ultra 2's 25MHz sbus system bus. Now,
granted, sbus is a more robust and sensible system, but the PCI makes
up for it with sheer brute force.
Add it up, and I don't think there's a problem with the 60's
really. However, for the price of a new 60, you can get a twin CPU
ultra 2 : that may well be worth looking at instead! 2*300MHz >>
1*360MHz in anyone's book...
Matt.
--
# Matthew Reynolds, | Email: reynolmd @ aston . ac . uk #
# Aston Space Geodesy | http://www.aston.ac.uk/~reynolmd #
# Aston University, Birmingham, | Phone: (+44) 121-359-3611 x4552 #
# B4 7ET. England, Earth. | Fax: (+44) 121-333-3389 #
================================================================================
Greetings Shubin,
If you are going to do image analysys I would go with the Ultra 60. I
have
been studying the Ultra platform ever since it came out in 1995 and try
to maintain a good understanding of the changes/enhancements made to the
platform. I would recommend a little different configuration: 512 Mb
memory
(memory is cheap right now) and the Elite 3D m3 or m6 graphics card. The
performace increase offered by the Elite series is impressive. I'm not
sure where those users are getting their info (sounds like they are SBUS
devotees :>) ) but an Ultra 60 is not like an Ultra 10 (PCI based). Yes
it has a very fast PCI bus but it also comes with dual Ultra wide SCSI
busses. The Ultra 60 will certainly beat out the Ultra 2. The 60 can
take
up to 2G of memory and has a higher memory bandwidth than the 2. Good
luck
in your eval.
Regards,
Michael J. Connolly
Engineering Systems Administrator
"Our OS which art in CPU-UNIX be thy name."
C&K Components, Inc.
Watertown, MA/Clayton, NC
617-926-6400 x8302
617-926-6245 (FAX)
E-mail: mjconnly@ckcorp.com
Visit C&K at http://www.ckcorp.com
================================================================================
These users have no idea what they're talking about. :-) The only
reason to buy an Ultra-2 is if you *must* have S-bus, perhaps to
migrate existing third-party cards that have no PCI equivalent yet.
The 360MHz/4MB cpu in a U60 will be, oh, about 360/300 faster than the
300MHz/2MB cpu. (I don't believe there's any technical reason the
360MHz/4MB module wouldn't work in a U2, by the way, but Sun doesn't
sell it that way.)
We own both U2's and U60's. All our new desktop purchases are U30's
and U60's. I've done I/O benchmarks between U2's and U60's and found
no significant difference.
The only thing I don't like about the U30/U60 platform is that you get
a nasty high-frequency whine off the disk drive. Most of my users end
up parking a binder or something in front of the box to block it.
--
Jay Lessert jay_lessert@latticesemi.com
Lattice Semiconductor Corp. (voice)1.503.681.0118
Hillsboro, OR, USA (fax)1.503.693.0540
================================================================================
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