SUMMARY-Field reports on clones

From: Tom Rebiger (rebiger@power.amasd.anatcp.rockwell.com)
Date: Sun Jan 23 1994 - 17:36:40 CST


My thanks to all that replied to my request for information on how well
SPARC clones were performing in the field. The summary of responces is
listed below. Normal disclaimers apply.

Shaking, rattling and still rolling in S.C.
 
Tom Rebiger

_________________________________________________________________________

Tom Rebiger 3370 Mira Loma Ave
Member of Technical Staff Anaheim, CA 92803-3150
Autonetics Electronics Systems MS DF62
Rockwell International (714) 762-0480
                                 FAX (714) 762-7672
                                 rebiger@amasd.anatcp.rockwell.com
_________________________________________________________________________

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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 08:50:46+020
From: fred@dip1.ee.uct.ac.za (Fred Hoare)

> MANUFACTURER: AXIL/Hyundai (They are the same company)
> MODEL QTY MONTHS OS USED HARDWARE REPAIRS FIRST
> INSTALLED 4.X SOLARIS 2.X 2months 12 months
>
 310 1 10 4.1.3 None None
(same as sparc 10 model 30)
>
>
> USES GENERIC SUN OS: yes (straight out of the box as supplied by Sun)
> OS SUPPORT: We don't have a maintainance contract
> HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: NO
> WARRANTY SERVICE: NOT USED
> WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: YES
> COMMENTS:

We haven`t had any problems with the clone. We also have some Sparc 2`s
and an IPX and the reliabilty of the clone is as good as that of the
Suns. We have a Sun CDROM and QIC Tape box connected to the clone and
haven't had any problems with using the different makes of hardware. In
my opinion the money saved is well worth it.

>
> SOFTWARE USED ON ANY CLONE:

Being an acadenmic instituition we don't have much money to buy
commercial software so most of what we use is free. We haven't had any
compatibilty problems with anything that we run. Here are some of the bigger
applications that we run.

KHOROS - image processing package from University of New Mexico
Sunvision - Suns own image processing package
X11R5 - the MIT distribution of X11
Answerbook - online manuals from Sun
NeuralWorks - commercial Neural Networks package from NeuralWorks, Inc

-------------
Frederick Hoare email: fred@dip1.ee.uct.ac.za
Department of Electrical Engineering
University of Cape Town fax: +27+21 6503465
7700 Rondebosch voice: +27+21 6502812
South Africa

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>From rogerio@jessica.bvl.pt Tue Jan 11 01:30:33 1994

We are not using clones (YET) but the way we negociated our SW
support contract with SUN may interest you :

a) One machine of each type is under FULL SW contract

b) The other similar configured machines have the right to use
new releases and patches.

What it boils up to is that a reproducible SW problem can be escalated
and the cost not that much...

Best regards,
Rogerio Rocha
rogerio@bvl.pt
BVL - Lisbon Stock Exchange
Information Systems

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>From IJohnston@cmutual.com.au Tue Jan 11 01:30:54 1994

Tom,
        I have some information that might be of use. We have bought a few Sun
clones over the years. In fact we have never bought a genuine Sun.
A local computer supplier imports motherboards and puts them together here
with local chassis and power supplies. We have been very happy with the
boxes and with the support. The only annoying thing that happened was
when we bought two motherboards made by TwinHead in Taiwan. The boards
had a dual Mbus Cypress SPARC CPU on it and ran SunOS. The problem was
that the SunOS was 4.1.2 and had some TwinHead mods in the kernel code
to allow for the motherboard. This meant we could not install any Sun
supplied patches that effected kernel files because we didn't know what
files TwinHead had modified. TwinHead were also slow getting there own patches
out. Since then we have bought two clone Sparc 10's that booted and installed
of the Sun supplied SunOS4.1.3 CD. I am not sure who made the boards but
they even look the same as the Sun boards.
  We started bying clones because they were a fraction of the cost of real
Sun's. Also the supplier we use gets good prices on Hitachi and Seagate
disks. We have had no software problems with either machine.
  So really the main point is that you should have any trouble with the
equipment if it can boot and install with Sun supplied OS media.

Hope that helps.
Ian J

PS. If you are interested in bying some Australian made SPARC machines
I can put you in contact with a company that has started making a machine
here that has a MBus CPU slot (capable of running either the TI HyperSPARCS
or the Cypress SPARC's). It has one SBUS slot but the CG3 card is built
onto the motherboard. It can also go 512Mb (8x64 simms) RAM. Also they
are cheap and your US$ buys lots of AUS$.
Just doing my bit for the AUS economy :-)

--
Ian Johnston                                 email: IJohnston@cmutual.com.au
UNIX System Administrator                    phone: +61-3-2831651
Colonial Mutual Group IT                     fax  : +61-3-2831090

########################################################################## >From eckhard@ts.go.dlr.de Tue Jan 11 04:27:18 1994

We bought our first clone recently, a Axil 311 with a 41 CPU. Inside, it looks even better than a Sun. They deliver a generic SunSoft Solaris 1.1, no problems with it or with any other software we tested. And I tried these GXtra "SBus X-Terminals" in it first, everything went well. We are fully satisfied upto now, but the tests we've done are not enough to fill in your form :-)

Tell your management that there is no comparison between DOS and UNIX, and the concept of clones is different between Sun and PCs, because Sun has always published its specifications (I think sometimes even chip layout) whereas PC clone manufacturers have to guess and rebuild to avoid patent problems.

To avoid APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSing SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE, you could buy one original Sun and the rest clones.

Eckhard R|ggeberg eckhard@ts.go.dlr.de

########################################################################## >From Wolfgang.Fischer@mch.sni.de Tue Jan 11 04:28:28 1994

I bought a Sparc clone recently and had no comatibility problems. It is from a German manufactor, which is not on your list. Here in our office we have an AXIL SUN2 clone for more than one year and had never any compatibility problems. Most clones have the save chips and the same hardware layout and use the original SunSoft Solaris CD.

-- Wolfgang Fischer e-mail: Wolfgang.Fischer@mch.sni.de S26361-K139-V2L ist eine Ratte!

########################################################################## >From gandalf@CSLI.Stanford.EDU Tue Jan 11 04:42:49 1994

We have recently purchased a number of SPARCstation-10s, from Sun, Axil, and Tatung. Experiences with other clones I collected from talking to colleagues at other institutes.

A Tatung SPARCstation is a partially Sun-compatible machine. It is lacking some features. Also, the internal audio devices (speaker and microphone) are of low quality. Output is hardly audible when the box is kept under the desk as we do. Not to mention audio input :-(. The monitors they ship were also of low quality - after a while, the picture becomes unsteady, given you an impression as if looking into a big aquarium. Maybe they have better ones now...

Axil manufactures truly compatible machines. Personally, I would never buy any other clones than Axil machines. They come with a little more space inside the box, so slightly larger disk drives will also fit. Consequently, there is a little bit more space between the SIMM slots and the drives. Axil machines come with stereo audio and are otherwise 100% compatible to Sun SPARCstation-10s. We tried the 10/30, 10/41, and 10/51 CPUs with them. No problem. We also tried a few SBus cards, including GX, ZX, Parallax XVideo, and a Fore ATM interface SBA-200. No problems.

Axil is now shipping Sony Trinitron monitors and you can get Sun Type-5 keyboards. Essentially, this is what I expect of a clone manufacturer. As for maintenance, there are several alternatives. I believe, AT&T or one of its subsidaries does maintenance in the U.S. You should check that with your Axil distributor.

Depending on the prices you get from Sun, I would suggest letting the price decide which SPARCstations to get. In a recent example, the super-ultra-promo offer from Sun was a SPARC 10/40 with 1GB disk for DM 19995.--. The same machine from Axil (just normal educational discount) with a 10/41 CPU (incl. 1 MB SuperCache) was DM 19690.--.

Therefore, if maintenance isn't a problem (i.e., if you can get it for both machines), look at the price. If the Sun isn't significantly more expensive, get a Sun. Otherwise, get an Axil.

Ok. Well, I don't work for Sun or Axil, and the above opinions are my own personally colored view of the world...

--Juergen Wagner

J_Wagner@iao.fhg.de gandalf@csli.stanford.edu

Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Arbeitswirtschaft und Organisation (FhG-IAO) Nobelstr. 12c Voice: +49-711-970-2013 D-70569 Stuttgart, Germany Fax: +49-711-970-2299 For more information/detail, please do "finger gandalf@csli.stanford.edu".

########################################################################## >From olav.lerbrekk@geologi.uio.no Tue Jan 11 05:04:47 1994

MANUFACTURER: AXIL MODEL QTY MONTHS OS USED HARDWARE REPAIRS FIRST INSTALLED 4.X SOLARIS 2.X 2months 12 months 220 Prof. Plus 1 3 x None

HWS-310 M30 1 10 x None USES GENERIC SUN OS: yes/no YES OS SUPPORT: SUN/MANUFACTURE/OTHER VENDOR/ Other Vendor HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: YES/NO NO WARRANTY SERVICE: NOT USED/EXCELLENT/GOOD/FAIR/POOR/SERVICE FROM HELL Not Used WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: YES/NO YES COMMENTS: SOFTWARE USED ON ANY CLONE:

IslandWrite/Draw/Paint 4.0 (with Tabel/Equation 1.0) WordPerfect 5.1 for X WingZ 1.1a NCSA Mosaic 2.0

Several geological software packages, without a hitch.

I have yet to find a SW package which won't work on our Axil's. The 310 is our main server, and is in constant use. It's also our main NFS server, with a total of 9GB on-line.

Hope this helps, Olav

-- Olav Lerbrekk Phone: +47 22 85 66 39 Computer Consultant Fax: +47 22 85 42 15 Department of Geology Email: olav.lerbrekk@geology.uio.no University of Oslo, Norway -- Standard disclaimer applies --

########################################################################## >From julian@syd.dwt.CSIRO.AU Tue Jan 11 05:11:14 1994

I have Axil SS10/30 and SS2 clones. They run SuOS4.1.3 fine. I also have tried various combinations of hardware ( Parallax framegrabber/buffer, DataCell Ds2200, Sun video pix and "real" Sun VideoPix hardare as well as Artecon serial mux and the FSBE ether/scsi card).

I have not seen one kernel incompatibility or an application incompat. The SS2 runs Sybase and a whole suite of compilers from Sun and CenterLine. Both machine also have multicast kernels and other weird local adiitions from time to time when we do strange things to test new ideas.

SunOS 4.1.3 was shipped direct by Axil including Axil printed doc ie: Sun's stuff but obviously reprinted with Axil's logo etc. It was identical to Sun in every way except the hardware manuals were better. We have Sun software/hardware support for other Sun stuff on site and we simply use the Sun updates etc.

The company that resells Axils in Australia is very helpful. The quality of the manufacture is very high. Locally the same company that does support Sun does the Axil stuff. We bought clones simply to save money and we thought we were taking a risk, it turned out to be a whole lot better and I will be buying more Axils soon.

I can only give you some fuzzy re-assurance that the Axils are OK. Filling out the table didnt seem to make much sense to me as from my point of view the clones ARE Sun Sparcstations.

Julian Dryden CSIRO DWT Sydney Australia.

########################################################################## >From cal@soac.bellcore.com Tue Jan 11 05:28:11 1994

First I would like to say I think clones are a great idea ! Something Sun definitely has over the other UNIX/RISC vendors.

The SPARC compliance definition (SCD) and Sbus/Mbus specs are a *FAR CRY* from anything in the early DOS days. What you load is SunOS. If its an SS 2 clone you can load anything from 4.1.1 to 5.3. If its an SS10, you start from 4.1.3 to 5.3. And so on. Only restrictions are those imposed by SunOS capability.

We have a SuperWorkstation SS10 clone running SunOS 5.2. We have not had any problems other than OS bugs - which by the way have been patched with regular old Sun patches. All the apps we run are working just fine.

My take is this : clones are fine for certain purposes - i.e. a users desktop. If you're using the system for a high availability transaction processing system *OR* if the machine is some type of communications gateway (e.g. X25, FDDI, ethernet, & SNA all on the same box) *OR* etc., etc. THEN you might want to consider a Sun in that spot so you can utilize their staff to fix their product (i.e. SunOS).

hope this helps.

########################################################################## >From Real.Page@Matrox.COM Tue Jan 11 06:22:07 1994

I just bought one clone SS10 and I found out some not so nice 'features':

- They do not use the same hardware fixture for the disks as the one from Sun. In fact, every mechanical aspect is different. I would be surprise if the pass FCC Class ??

- The NVRAM Simms socket (the little socket beside the RAM Simms are missing) This mean that NVRAM PrestoServe would not work in this system.

- The hardware clip to keep the SBus and MBus board in place is missing.

As for software, nothing is installed yet, this will be done in the next weeks. -- Real Page, Ing. ! Real.Page@Matrox.COM Gerant des Systemes Informatiques ! (514) 685-7230 #2359 Systemes Electroniques Matrox ! (514) 685-7030 Fax Dorval, Quebec !

########################################################################## >From birger@sdvest.vest.sdata.no Tue Jan 11 06:40:28 1994

Most clone manufacturers are compatible enough to use SunOS right out of the box. But none of SunSoft's dealers (including SMCC) are allowed to sell you a SunOS CD for use on another vendor's platform. So you'll have to continue buying software upgrades from each of your vendors even if it's the same package. I don't know what happens if a manufacturer goes out of business. At least this is how I understand what I have seen on the net concerning SunSofts licenses.

You should also check support and availability on other Sun software products. Especially things like DiskSuite, Backup Copilot, ASET and other products you may need on your servers. Will you need communications software like 3270, X.25, DNI, etc? Check it out.

Birger

########################################################################## >From marv@iti.gov.sg Tue Jan 11 06:46:17 1994

> > MANUFACTURER: Tatung > MODEL QTY MONTHS OS USED HARDWARE REPAIRS FIRST > INSTALLED 4.X SOLARIS 2.X 2months 12 months > > MicroCOMP 0 > > COMPSTATION 4 12-14 4.1.2 2.2 Nil Nil > > SUPER COMP 7 1 5 4.1.3 Nil Nil > > SUPER COMP 10 0 > > USES GENERIC SUN OS: yes > OS SUPPORT: SUN > HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: NO > WARRANTY SERVICE: GOOD > WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: YES > COMMENTS: The workmanship of the exterior might put u off a bit. The access speed of the HD might also be slightly slower. So far, no major problems yet. If you're really on a budget and/or doing r&d (like me), this is quite an attractive package.. But if u can afford it or wud be using the system on a production basis (i.e. in real working life), i'd rather advise on a Sun original (Yer gotta luv these guys)

regds,

marv --- Marvin Tay Information Technology Institute Internet: marv@iti.gov.sg Computer National Computer Board Bitnet : MarvinTay@ITIVAX and Comms Lab. 71 Science Park,Singapore (0511) Tel (O) :(65)-7720901

########################################################################## >From ljm@halsp.hitachi.com Tue Jan 11 06:51:41 1994

> MANUFACTURER: AXIL > MODEL QTY MONTHS OS USED HARDWARE REPAIRS FIRST > INSTALLED 4.X SOLARIS 2.X 2months 12 months > > 311-41 3 10 xx 0 0 > > 311-51 2 10 xx 0 2 > > USES GENERIC SUN OS: yes > OS SUPPORT: SUN > HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: NO > WARRANTY SERVICE: EXCELLENT > WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: YES > COMMENTS: These are EXCELLENT cost/performance machines!! > > SOFTWARE USED ON ANY CLONE: > COMPASS VLSI design tools Verilog/Veritime H-Spice Motive VGEN/VCAP/VTRAN Mentor I have had NO compatibility problems with software or third party hadware.

Larry ***************************************************************** *** Larry J. Miller *** E-mail: ljm@halsp.hitachi.com *** *** CAE Operations Engineer *** ljm@netcom.com *** *** Hitachi America, Ltd. *** Voice: (415) 244-7375 *** ***************************************************************** *** "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making *** *** other plans". From yee old fortune cookie :-) *** ***************************************************************** *** The contents of this message *may* reflect MY personal *** *** opinion. The contents of this message is *not* intended *** *** to reflect those of my employer, or anyone else. *** *****************************************************************

########################################################################## >From ericb@telecnnct.com Tue Jan 11 07:33:56 1994

We have Solbournes and Opus. The Opus' are pure SS2+ clones. For example, I can run SunDBE out of the box on the board. The Solbournes are "almost compatible". The only place to get the OS is from them. Their latest release corresponds to SunOS 4.1.2! Moreover, we can get software service contracts from Sun for Solaris for the Opus systems, while Solbourne charges > $800 for the priveledge of getting an upgrade to system that's six releases behind Sun!

########################################################################## >From ndmann@tacl.dnet.ge.com Tue Jan 11 07:58:45 1994

It's worth it to bring in the clones. BE SURE YOUR SUN REP sees them! Be sure your SUN rep is aware you're soliciting input from other netters.

Even though we already has 80+ SS10's, we were able to obtain ATTRACTIVE pricing (and liberal trade in on old VAXstations) on 65 SS10m40's. I can't say how attractive, but they REALLY DION'T WANT the competition on site!

########################################################################## >From bhppa@sugar.NeoSoft.COM Tue Jan 11 09:31:28 1994

>MANUFACTURER: Tatung >MODEL QTY MONTHS OS USED HARDWARE REPAIRS FIRST > INSTALLED 4.X SOLARIS 2.X 2months 12 months > >MicroCOMP 2 6 4.1.3 0 0 > >COMPSTATION > >SUPER COMP 7 5 4 4.1.3 1 1 > >SUPER COMP 10 1 5 4.1.3 0 0 > >USES GENERIC SUN OS: yes >OS SUPPORT: SUN/MANUFACTURE/OTHER VENDOR/ We do it ourselves >HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: YES However, they are getting pounded so heavily about it they are changing their tune. The problem is not Tatung, the problem is the vendor (Landmark Graphics) sells Suns and any Tatung I buy is a Sun they didn't sell. >WARRANTY SERVICE: GOOD >WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: YES and have. We are about to buy 10 more. >

Pays for the system type software:

- SeisWorks 2.1.1 - StratWorks - Eclipse 93a - Finder - ERMapper a lot of other oil and gas exploration software I doubt you would recognize

There are no problems with these programs that can be attributed to the use of clones. They are bug-for-bug compatible with the same software running on Sun's

Keeps us from having stinking DOS PC's on the same desktops type software:

- cc:Mail 1.1 - WordPerfect 5.1 - Lotus 1-2-3 for Sun

These programs are also bug-for-bug compatible. Being PC programs at heart, we have a lot of problems connecting to printers and with them modifying X and so on. These sometimes appear to be attributable to the clone, but we have always traced them pack to PC mentality problems, not clone problems.

OTHER COMMENTS:

Using workstations and Unix always requires a commitment to a more sophisticated level of support.

Will Morse

########################################################################## >From miker@il.us.swissbank.com Tue Jan 11 09:35:23 1994

Just as Weitek does with its SS-2 chip upgrade, you should ask the clone manufacturers to guarantee in writing compatibility with all future Solaris versions, or a full refund.

########################################################################## >From mliggett@onyx Tue Jan 11 11:04:35 1994

We are also considering the purchase of Sparc clones here as well. I would appreciate it if you could forward to me whatever information you get from this post. We are considering X terminals or (if the price is right) clone LX's or similar. Thanks much.

-matt liggett (mliggett@onyx.chem.indiana.edu)

########################################################################## >From sls@phy.duke.edu Tue Jan 11 11:09:19 1994

I don't have any clones, but a bit of advice. You don't say how many Suns you are purchasing. Is it 5 or 500? If it is a small number, then I might take a chance, but certainly not on a large number of machines. Usually capital costs are minimal compared to personnel costs, so unless you are absolutely convinced that the clones are going to perform the task at hand flawlessly, you should purchase Suns. You work in the real world, so there is also productivity to be considered. If you come up against a clone specific problem, how long can you afford to have an unusable machine? With regard to support, there is one all important question: Are you confident that the vendor will be in business to support the machine during it's lifetime? If the answer to that one is no, then you should not consider purchasing clones.

There are also other questions. Play devil's advocate and look at the "what if"s. Consider carefully the long term costs versus short term benefits.

I have learned the hard way that cheaper is not always better. I will only buy Telebit or US Robotics modems for a dialin modem pool. I have spent too many hours dealing with the cheap imitations which can have odd behaviors, despite claiming "xyz compatability".

Good luck, Shelley

-- Shelley L. Shostak (919) 660-2565 Senior Systems Programmer Duke University Dept. of Physics sls@phy.duke.edu Box 90305 Durham, N.C. 27708-0305

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>From splite@bambi.sdd.trw.com Tue Jan 11 11:41:53 1994

At my last job we used several Tatung COMPstation 25s and 40s. The only compatibility problem we had invloved the floppy controllers, as Tatung uses a newer version of the chip that Sun uses. A patch for Solaris 1.x comes on the Solaris CD-ROM. Solaris 2.x works fine without patches.

We had no problems with application compatibility. Our Tatungs were used mostly for software development, so I can't guarantee that a database or something mucking around kernel-wise wouldn't have a problem, but I would be suprised if it did. The only difference the user may notice is that Tatung floppies don't auto-eject, which can confuse some programs that expect to be notified by the system when a floppy is inserted. I actually prefer the Tatung floppies because the "in-use" LED is visible, and because I think auto- insert/eject is for Mac weenies. :)

As far as support from Sun, remember that SunSoft is its own planet with its own customers outside Sun Microsystems Computer Corporation. At one time, Tatung was SunSoft's biggest customer outside SMCC, although I've heard that Axil is now #2. SunSoft isn't likely to turn its back on potential customers just to satisfy SMCC.

I can't comment on the Super COMPstation 7s and 10s, but we did have a microCOMPstation for evaluation, and it seemed pretty nice. I prefer the roomier pizza box to Sun's dinner box Classics and LXs.

I'd say go for the clones. If you can swing it, you could also try buying some Suns and some clones. (We did this.) Then you can compare them in real-life situations and see how that stack up. If someone finds a fatal incompat- ability, swap them for one of the Suns. Unless your users are all doing the same thing, they probably won't all be hit by the same problem. Good luck! _______________________________________________________________________________ Steven Plite <splite@bambi.sdd.trw.com> Unix administrator with System Manager, Integrated Technology Center, TRW dual air bags, standard "This is the roller coaster of endless and violent vomit." -- Jason Fox

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>From brian@cyrix.com Tue Jan 11 12:27:24 1994

Tom,

I am completely satisfied with the Tatung systems we have here, in fact we upgraded most of the sun sparcII machines to super compstation 7/40s, so we have less than 10 sun stations left. Tatung provides our software maintenance for all sparc systems. I first purchased the tatung workstations in 1990, and now we have over 100 of them. I have not purchased any sun equipment since 1990 (servers or workstations). There have been very few problems with the equipment, and the problems have been resolved very quickly (usually overnight). If you can't tell, I'm a happy customer. Tatung's warranty period is one year.

MANUFACTURER: Tatung MODEL QTY MONTHS OS USED HARDWARE REPAIRS FIRST INSTALLED 4.X SOLARIS 2.X 2months 12 months

MicroCOMP 0

COMPSTATION 100+ since 1990 4.1.3c <2% <.5%

SUPER COMP 7 20 7 4.1.3c

SUPER COMP 10 0

USES GENERIC SUN OS: yes OS SUPPORT: MANUFACTURE HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: NO WARRANTY SERVICE: EXCELLENT WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: YES COMMENTS: see above

SOFTWARE USED ON ANY CLONE: We use: Cadence design tools, verilog, hspice, dracula, chronolog, pathmill, pearl, ikos all without any problems. We also use Solbourne file servers.

########################################################################## >From rmo@ten-fwd.teltechlabs.com Tue Jan 11 14:06:54 1994

Hello:

Well, the Axil's were used in Pactel for awhile then they got rid of it for various reasons. The others I haven't used. You may want to call this vendor belo they have been real good for us.

MANUFACTURER: Super Workstation MODEL QTY MONTHS OS USED HARDWARE REPAIRS FIRST INSTALLED 4.X SOLARIS 2.X 2months 12 months SS2 GX Plus 12 18 4.1.3 All 2.3 now 0 2

Two Years Parts and Labor Warranty. 408-436-8881. Marilyn or Jim Choi They install either SunOS or Solaris for you. You get the same release as you do from Sun. SS2 SS10

USES GENERIC SUN OS: yes OS SUPPORT: SUN HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: NO WARRANTY SERVICE: EXCELLENT WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: YES COMMENTS: Competitive Pricing better built, built in San Jose, not overseas. SOFTWARE USED ON ANY CLONE:

Sun SparcWorks, FrameMaker 4, Motif, Sunlink, HSI/S, NIS, Solaris 2.3, SunOS 4.1.3,4.1.2, Comdisco BONeS 2.5, Informix 5.0, WingZ, PCNFS 5.0, Openwindows All Revs, GNU C,C++,Interviews ERMapper 4.1, ERM HiView 4.0.

Should you have any questions or need a reference feel free to contact me. Later Rob

Robert Ogren Telesis Technologies Laboratory, A Pacific Telesis Group Company 390 N. Wiget Ln. #100 Walnut Creek,CA 94598 E-Mail: rmo@teltechlabs.com (510) 210-8816 Voice (510) 210-8806 FAX

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>From tsg60617@citibank.com.au Tue Jan 11 15:20:36 1994

Tatung ======

MODEL TIME OS H/W 2 H/W Lifetime ----- ---- -- ----- ------------ micro COMPstation LX 6 mths 2.2 1 x keyboard fault nil COMPSTATION 20 2 yrs 4.1.2 nil 1 x scsi fuse COMPSTATION 40* 5 mths 4.1.2 nil nil

(* upgraded the 20 to a 40 - kept all original peripherals)

USE GENERIC SUN OS: yes OS SUPPORT: Tatung vendor HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: no WARRANTY SERVICE: Good (better than Sun) WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: yes

Axil ====

?? (10/52 equivilent) 12 mths 4.1.3 1 x GX problem nil

USE GENERIC SUN OS: yes OS SUPPORT: AXIL vendor HAVE APPLICATION VENDORS REFUSED SUPPORT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A CLONE: partly WARRANTY SERVICE: Good (not as good as Tatung) WOULD PURCHASE PRODUCTS AGAIN: yes

The ONLY difference that I have ever found is that the clones use a different floppy chip and the autoeject of floppy disks does not always work.

Software used:

WordPerfect 4.2, 5.0 Lotus release 2 & 3 SunAda Island Graphics 3.x, 4.x SimCity Aviator ---------*---------*---------*---------*---------*---------*--------- Who: Jon.Wright@Citibank.com.au The answer to life, the What: UNIX Systems Manager universe and everything Where: Citibank, Sydney, Australia is UNIX (/nev/dull)! ---------*---------*---------*---------*---------*---------*--------- ##########################################################################

>From bidwell@andrews.edu Wed Jan 12 05:23:54 1994

We don't use Tatung or Axil, but we are using Apogee clones and have been very happy with them. We have their versions of Sparc II+ (50 mhz) and Sparc 10/41 with 2 processors. They boot Sunos 5.3 from the Sunsoft CD. They have been reliable. They have a 3 year warranty instead of the 90 days from Sun. The only differences between our Apogee machines and our Sun machines is the name on the cabinet and the price. All of our software runs the same on the clones as it does on the Suns.

-- Daniel R. Bidwell | bidwell@andrews.edu Andrews University Computer Science & Information Systems Department If two always agree, one of them is unnecesary "Friends don't let friends do DOS" "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, however, they are not."

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>From john@pendragon.zim.bms.com Wed Jan 12 05:48:22 1994

You should consider getting quotes on Sun equipment from resellers (vars) as well as from Sun. We have never gotten a lower price on hardware from Sun as opposed to a var. Our current favorite is PDC. We deal with Dan Hickey in the Chicago office. Here is there general number: 510-449-6881.

I'm not sure, but you may fine that var prices are competitive with clones.

Good Luck, John -------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Turner Zimmer Inc. Internet: john@zim.bms.com Senior Analyst P.O. Box 708 Telephone: 219-372-4634 Cad/Cam Services Warsaw, IN 46581-0708 FAX: 219-372-4550 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ##########################################################################

>From jeff%astroatc.UUCP@cs.wisc.edu Thu Jan 13 07:56:10 1994

Check out the December 1993 edition of SunWorld. There's a review of six SPARC10 clonemakers (P. 53). - Jeff Astronautics Corporation of America Technology Center - Madison, WI jeff%astroatc.uucp@spool.cs.wisc.edu



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